Talk:Herbert Sutcliffe

17 minutes?

In the second Test at the MCG he was on the field for all but seventeen minutes of a six-day match. See scorecard. The match lasted for seven days (which I have edited already) but the 17 minutes stat is wrong. From the scorecard it is obvious that it refers to the second innings (Chapman came in at the fall of Sutcliffe at 280 and he batted for 16 minutes).

In the first innings, Sutcliffe was fifth out with the score at 404. The last five wickets took the score to 479 in approximately 66 minutes.

Unless someone has an objection, I intend to change seventeen minutes to 'an hour or so'.--Tintin1107 12:34, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Changed 17 minutes to an hour (it is more like 80 minutes). Feel free to revert if you have an authentic source. --Tintin1107 04:23, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

Average

If I am not mistaken, Bradman's average is 99.94, which is much higher than Sutcliffe. No disrespect to the player, for he was in a league of his own, but to say that Bradman's was only a scratch higher is a misrepresentation. I haven't changed it, because I do not know how to word it in context of the sentence. I will leave it up to someone else. --Argonavtica) 00:42, 22 Dec 2005 (UTC)

I think you've misread it. It says he's 4th in the list. The next 2 players up (Headley 60.8 and Pollock 60.9) have only fractionally higher averages. Bradman's average is a league apart - ie "more than a fraction" higher. - "His Test batting average of 60.73 is the fourth highest of any player, and only Don Bradman's is more than a fraction higher. " - is correct and doesn't say that Bradman's average is only a fraction higher than his. --LiamE 17:36, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Well...

I don't know where the "seventeen minutes" came from, but it may be wrong.

One thing I must say is: how did Sutcliffe fail to gain a single nomination in the 2000 Wisden Cricketer Of The Century poll?? The 2000 Wisden itself is remarkable for not noticing this fact: his figures, given the conditions he faced, were at his peak without comparison, really.

F-c average

Sutcliffe's first-class career batting average of 51.95 is bettered among batsmen with over 30,000 runs only by Hammond.

Only if you restrict the filter to those who have completed their careers: as I write, Hick has 38,125 runs at 53.47. I've edited the text slightly for this reason, but my wording is a bit inelegant so maybe someone else can find a better form of words. Besides, Hick's career is very much in its later stages now, and he's likely to end up with a better average than Sutcliffe even once he's retired.

Also, Cricinfo give Sutcliffe a f-c average of 52.02 (as reflected in the Infobox) as opposed to 51.95 in the text; presumably this is a similar disagreement as with the number of Hobbs' f-c centuries (where Cricinfo claim 199, rather than the usual 197). Personally I'd prefer to use Wisden stats, but in an Infobox, with Cricinfo explicitly mentioned as the source, I think I really do have to use the precise numbers they give. Loganberry (Talk) 00:42, 27 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Boycott(48,426 at 56.8) and Hutton (40,140 at 55.5) both beat that record too so I was going to remove that sentence. However it looks like its true if we change 30,000 to 50,000. The 50,000 plus list is of course a very short one though. --LiamE 12:08, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Assuming Hick plays no further first-class cricket, which seems almost certain (though I suppose it's just possible he could make a Gooch-style appearance for MCC or something) his final f-c average is 52.23, so he does indeed (just) beat Sutcliffe. Loganberry (Talk) 18:28, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, is this the same man?

• [1]

Austerlitz -- 88.72.16.2 10:01, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

• [2]

-- 88.72.16.2 10:05, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Nope. --LiamE (talk) 16:15, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Family

I am overwhlemed to see that Herbert's name still lives strong. I am his great grandaughter, grandaughter of one of his two children Barbara. I am currently on teaching practice, studying to become a PE teacher and came across this whilst researching cricket and teaching styles. Keep it up! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.219.81.179 (talk) 10:04, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Source

A key source for this article should be Herbert Sutcliffe: Cricket Maestro by Alan Hill, published 2007 (2nd edition) by Stadia. The book has won the Cricket Society Literary Award. ----Jack | ^{talk page} 03:56, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Opening Partnerships

There should I think be more on his partnerships with Hobbs for England, including the number of ventury partnerships they shared (which I think is still a record for any pair of England openers), and more about the famous partnership against Australia at The Oval in 1926. Also there is no mention of Percy Holmes in the article at all! There needs to be something about their opening partnerships for Yorkshire. Again their number of century partnerships should be included, and their famous 555 partnership of 555 at Leyton - breaking Brown and Tunnicliffe's existing f-c record (I think for any wicket, not just the first) - should be covered. (I wrote something about that partnership for the Leyton Cricket Ground article, which you are welcome to use. JH (talk page) 19:47, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

I agree. Percy has now arrived, by the way, our paths having crossed. Something is also needed about Sutcliffe's status, which he shared with Hammond, as a new type of professional who went into business and, instead of coaching at a public school, sent his own son to one. I'm working chronologically at the moment and have covered his developing years up to his first season, which was a remarkable one. Much more to come. ----Jack | ^{talk page} 21:19, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Sutcliffe's approach to cricket

With regard to his not being the typical Yorkshire professional, it's noteworthy that - as the article mentions early on - he became a commissioned officer during WW1. Maybe the Army was more progressive than Yorkshire CCC! Incidentally, did Neville Cardus really "resent" Sutcliffe's Saville Row suits? If so, it seems rather hypocritical of him, given his own poor background and subsequent career.

I should say that even the dinosaurs were more progressive!  :-)

Good question about Cardus but I got it from Birley who usually seems plausible, apart from certain errors of detail. The quote about "bourgeois profession" is straight from Cardus and he did also make a point about a "Teddington accent", but I think Birley goes a bit too far when he says Cardus foresaw "the collapse of the old feudal order". I think Cardus definitely preferred his Emmotts to his Herberts, though. Jack | ^{talk page} 18:21, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

The only book of Cardus's that I actually own is Close of Play, published in 1956. I thought I vaguely remembered something about Sutcliffe in it, and on looking out the book I found I was right. There's a piece called Sutcliffe and Yorkshire. Reading it, it's clear that Cardus admired Sutcliffe and relished his idiosyncracies of character. I wonder if Birley perhaps took some joking remark too seriously. So I'm going to change "resented" to some more neutral word. The piece is full of quotable material. I'll try to avoid getting carried away, but when time permits I'll have to add one or two quotes from it. JH (talk page) 17:03, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Review

Some initial thoughts:

• There are several statements in the lead which, unless repeated later on in the article with citations, need citations there. I'm thinking in particular of the (undoubtedly true) claim that he was one of the greatest opening batsmen; that on the Bodyline tour he was publicly supportive of Jardine whilst privately disapproving of the tactic; that he was one of the first professionals to become a successful businessman - I'd be inclined to reword it as "Sutcliffe became a successful businessman", as how many predecessors managed that would be very hard to establish.
• Later on, in the "Approach to batting" section the statement that "Sutcliffe's approach was essentially professional" I feel would be better reworded. That's because "professional", especially in the context of cricket, can mean several different things, and I'm not sure that the wl really helps to clarify, as it mainly deals with the traditional professions. Unfortunately I can't think of another single word that would be a suitable synonym for "professional" as it's used in this sentence.
• Childhood: Is Gabblegate correct, or is it perhaps a typo for Gablegate? "In 1911, his prowess at cricket earned him an offer of clerical employment in a local textile mill..." That needs expanding, as otherwise it looks like a non sequitur.

I've done a little copy-editing of the lead and Childhood sections. JH (talk page) 18:16, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Hi John. Thanks for your help with this. I'm more than happy to field any review comments here rather than on my home page.

The lead has been rewritten, although it might need further revision yet. I always find it difficult to be satisfied with lead sections! I've taken your advice about previous businessmen as there were a number (e.g., Clarke, Wisden, Shaw, Shrewsbury). Everything in the lead is a summary of what follows in the detail so I've not bothered with any citations there at present.

I've expanded on what I meant by professional approach as it was essentially about his determination to win the match.

The connection between the mill owner and the local club has been established so I think we're just about okay on that one.

And Gabblegate is correct as a typical Yorkshire spelling curiosity. My favourite has always been Slaithwaite (near Huddersfield) which is pronounced Slow-it (and the "slow" rhymes with "allow" not with "low").  :-) ----Jack | ^{talk page} 16:17, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Thomson on Sutcliffe

I know that we already have a lot of quotations, but I can't resist adding one more, by A. A. Thomson, as I think it's illuminating. Some text was emphasised in the original text by being in italics. I've attempted to preserve the emphasis by making those words unitalicised ("Sutcliffean" and "I love a dog-fight") where the rest is in italics. JH (talk page) 19:39, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

ODNB

A few points gleaned from CMJ's entry on Sutcliffe in the ODNB (usually subscription only but currently free as a "life of the week"):

• his father was William (1864–1898); his mother was Jane Elizabeth née Bell (1867–1904)
• was he nine or ten when his mother died?
• educated at Pudsey School (not currently mentioned)
• also from Pudsey are John Tunnicliffe, Len Hutton, and Ray Illingworth
• Leveson-Gower wrote in 1925 - "Many who through the plodding years of county cricket had known his name only as one among dozens which stood for efficiency, not for greatness, have now discovered in him a player ... who has placed himself amongst the Immortals"
• he deliberately got himself out after he and Holmes achieved their record opening partnership of 555
• his first-class batting average exceeded 50 in eight consecutive seasons from 1925 to 1932
• CMJ's text says he was "the only cricketer to play through every season between the wars" (1919 to 1939)
• scored over 1,000 runs in each of the 21 seasons between the wars (1919 to 1939)
• younger professionals at Yorkshire called him "maestro"
• he was 29 when he made his Test debut and 40 when he played his last Test in 1935
• CMJ's text says his batting style was "strictly functional and simple ... yet not without its own artistic flourish [as] attacking shots would finish with a late curve of the bat"
• Hobbs admired his thoroughness and envied his ability as a public speaker
• when he lost his England place Denis Smith, he is said to have remarked "Who is Smith?"
• he served on a Royal Commission on betting, lotteries, and gaming (1949-1951, chaired I think by Henry Willink[3]) and on the rugby league disciplinary committee
• he was a freemason at a lodge in London
• Hutton said "He was correct in all he did, on and off the field, but never so ambitious as to forget that he was playing in a team game."
• Ellis Robinson said "He set a perfect example ... one of his great attributes was ... his guts. Many times I have seen him black and blue, after taking the brunt of the bowling on his body, rather than play the ball, thus resisting the chance of getting out."
• his funeral was held at the United Reformed church in Otley and his cremation at Rawdon crematorium

Some of these points could be incorporated in this article, but I will leave the authors to decide which. -- Ferma (talk) 16:46, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Birthdate

I have a copy of Herbert's School enrollment at Darley and his birthdate is given as 24 Feb 1895. The GRO confirms that he was registered Ist the first quarter of 1895. I note that in the 1901 census he is staying in Pudsey with his Grandparents and aunts.

I'm afraid this is demonstrably wrong. Aside from the fact that all other sources (Cricinfo, CricketArchive and Hill's biography) give the 24 November 1894 birthdate, which carries some considerable weight against finding your own primary sources, a little OR of my own reveals that this cannot possibly be correct. this, or if your prefer, this shows that Herbert Sutcliffe, son of William and Jane Elizabeth Sutcliffe was baptised at Nidderdale on 4th December 1894. It is certainly him, and he could hardly have been baptised if he had not been born. Perhaps the school enrollment was a mistake: his parents were dead by then, which might explain it. I've reverted to the old birthdate. Sarastro1 (talk) 16:52, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Further confirmation of 24 November 1894 being correct is published mid-February 1925 in an article reviewing the 1924-25 Ashes tour - here The section on Sutcliffe includes the comment "..He celebrated his thirtieth birthday shortly after his arrival in Australia.." RossRSmith (talk) 07:11, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

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