Talk:List of South Africans

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As a South African, I feel I have a right to say something about the issue, and looking at the list, I only truly feel that four or five of the entries should not have been there. It's high time for South Africans to accept that apartheid is the past. South Africa is meant to be a country of free speech, even if your idea of free speech means waving the old flag or singing the old Afrikaans anthem. Everyone, in my mind, who is born under a South African sky, who is born to South African parents, who has felt a South African sun, is a South African - regardless of our skin colour.

I'm not sure if this anonymous comment was in response to my comment about using the Top100 list, or just a general comment. If it was about the Top100, I agree that everyone on the Top100 list should still be listed in this article. They're all noteworthy for one or other reason. However, I disagree about using a contentious vote in Wikipedia, presenting a POV as almost a factual list of great South Africans. The article title is '[List of South Africans], the so-called Top100 does not belong here. Greenman 25 June 2005

Removed a bit of text concerning Hansie Cronje, not due to any disagreement, but due to the fact it was misplaced POV... If you want to write about his efforts in charity, do so in His Bio. -aliasd

Well, wikipedians from all the other countries seem to be doing it!

Please refrain from putting JRR Tolkien in this list. I know he was a Bloemfontein boykie, but he left for england while still a baby. - clasqm

Is there a difference between a statesman and a politician? I would classify Smuts, Mandela and de Klerk as statesmen - Verwoerd was merely a politician. If Tolkien cannot be claimed for South Africa, can Cecil Rhodes? - Tiles

Tolkien, Ghandi, Cecil Rhodes and Jan van Riebeeck where voted as Great South Africans in 2004 even though they spent little time in South Africa and then there is the architects of Apartheid - Verwoerd and Malan ect.

Why are all these people in the great South African list? The answer is simple, South Africa is the Rainbow Nation and we accept our past and now build our future on forgiveness and tolerance. This list is a list of famous and infamous people who put South Africa on the map as voted by the people. Yes I know it is hard to believe that some people look up to the likes of Winnie, Verwoerd, Malan, Hertzog, Mrs Ples, Boesak and Terreblanche.

My top 10 Great South Africans who I voted for is Nelson Mandela, Jan Smuts, FW de Klerk, Albert Luthuli, Beyers Naude, Johnny Clegg, Alan Paton, Trevor Manuel, Patrica de Lille and Jody Scheckter

--Jcw69 07:36, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I don't think the Top100 list should be used at all in Wikipedia. Sure, everyone on the list should have an article, but why present an obscure list voted by tiny minority of SABC3 viewers as representative of the 100 Greatest? Why not a list voted by Radio Pulpit listeners? Or Isolezwe readers? Why such a POV presentation of greatest? Over time the order and list would change, even for SABC3 viewers. Wikipedia should not be constrained by this list, in a particular place in time, by a particular subset of voters. I strongly suggest the list goes, replaced by a simple listing of notable South Africans. --Greenman 14 June 2005

Is Chris de Burg really South African? And is that how you spell his name?

Could 198.54.202.242 please stop taking off the links. Wikipedia is built up by inter links to other pages, what you doing is bordering onto vandalism.--Jcw69 16:00, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Is anybody actually going to write articles for the redlinked articles that are NOT in the top 100 (which are of marginally notable people anyway in most cases)? The purpose of the original list (before the whole SABC 3 top 100 issue, which should probably be in a seperate article anyway, come to think of it) was actually to list South Africans FOR WHOM THERE WERE ALREADY EXISTING ARTICLES. Just adding names without articles is completely pointless, as you could then add hundreds, if not thousands of more names, all redlinked. So I support whoever is deleting the redlinked names. If you feel so strongly about those names, why don't you write some accompanying articles for them? Otherwise I will consider deleting them myself in a few day's time. Elf-friend 08:04, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I agree with not having links of names without articles but 198.54.202.242 was also deleteing links to already exsisting articles--Jcw69 08:27, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Ah, I should have investigated further before replying ... I agree with you in that case. :-) Elf-friend 10:38, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Since the rank of the top 10 remains unknown, the numbered list should begin with Tutu as number 10. But I don't know how to do that. Can someone? user:J.J.

JJ I had position 2 to 10 blank by using the html code ol instead of #, I could redo that again--Jcw69 07:11, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Emily Hobhouse

Any debute on my suggestion of putting Emily Hobhouse on the list although British has become an honorary South African?--Jcw69 17:35, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Well, if Gandhi can be on the list of Top 100 South Africans, although he was never a citizen, I don't see why not. (Hmmm ... Gandhi lived here for 21 years - for how long did Emily Hobhouse stay here? ... and isn't she buried in SA?) Elf-friend 09:33, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Text from "Greatest South African" Page

I have moved this text from "Greatest South African" and made that page a redirect to here, so that it can be merged if anyone thinks it is appropriate PBS 08:54, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The greatest South Africans?

Native Africans, English, and Afrikaners would undoubtedly have varying views on the issue. Here are some views from an American interested in South African history:

Jan Smuts: the most diverse and brilliant of all of the South Africans, Smuts served Kruger in the pre-war years, fought valiantly for the Afrikaner cause in the Boer War, and skillfully negotiated a peace in the wake of defeat that all but ensured the Afrikaner renaissance that ensued. Smuts calculated that Afrikaner greatness would be best served by a reconciliation with the British following the Boer War -- an attitude that drew the ire of "bitterenders" and their progeny, the Nationalists. However, Smuts' political aptitude would render South Africa a staunch ally of Great Britain during the two World Wars and would place South Africa on the morally correct -- and victorious -- side of the battle against Nazism. Charming and brilliant, Smuts was a respected statesman across the globe, highly thought of by world leaders such Churchill and Roosevelt. After his political downfall in 1948 and his death in 1950, Smuts' successors would not be viewed with similar favor by the world community.

Paul Kruger: the towering figure of Afrikaner nationalism, Kruger was the ultimate patriot of his people. Kruger was in his youth a consummately skilled frontiersman, hardened by his childhood participation in the Great Trek, whereby numerous Afrikaners traveled north into southern Africa's interior in order to escape British rule. The Trek forged the Afrikaner consciousness, including Kruger's. Kruger held to the firm conviction that South Africa was not just to be a white man's country, but was to be, first and foremost, the Afrikaner's country. British imperialism was not to be tolerated, and anyone with a different viewpoint on the matter could hardly be considered to be a friend. Kruger was a man of simple ideas, but of powerful convictions. His leadership in the first freedom war against the British -- which reversed the British's annexation of the Transvaal -- mythologized Kruger. His conviction, his fortitude, his life on the frontier, and his rise to political preeminence all leave him as the rough equivalent of the Americans' own mythological figure, Andrew Jackson. And Kruger is Jackson's parallel in one other less appealing but historically significant way -- he was quite willing to kill men of a different color than his own. Neither Kruger nor Jackson created the racial conflicts in which they found themselves, but they both survived them -- sometimes because they were aggressors. The fact that they were trapped in the mindset of their times -- viewing the natives of their respective countries as inherently inferior -- no doubt rendered them less troubled by their actions.

Nelson Mandela: those familiar with Mandela's unique combination of keen intellect and ferocious endurance would not be surprised to learn that Mandela was trained, in his youth, in two highly disparate crafts: the law and boxing. Mandela eventually, however, would answer to a higher calling, when he became a member of the African National Congress and a freedom fighter in the native Africans' struggle against the Nationalist government's policy of apartheid. Mandela was part of a younger, less patient group of native Africans who embraced violence as a means of reversing the racial sins that had historically plagued his country. Of course, in terms of sheer strength, the ANC was at the time severely overmatched by the Nationalists' apartheid machine, and Mandela was as a result captured and jailed for 27 years. However, in terms of patriotism and endurance, Mandela would prove to be the African equal of Kruger, the great Afrikaner who led the struggle against British policies that were oppressive to the Afrikaner some 100 years before. By the 1980s, Mandela's captivity had become a flashpoint not just in South Africa but, indeed, across the globe. And when Mandela was released, he would not only rise to the top of South Africa's political spectrum, but would become one of the most revered persons on the globe. As the leader of a new South Africa, Mandela served as a model in his effort to heal the country's racial wounds, a truly extraordinary effort considering that he had just emerged from a captivity imposed upon him by his political enemies.

What does the poll mean?

Hendrik Verwoerd was certainly the greatest statesmen amongst the politician. But I get a feeling that South Africans voted just by common knowledge about the figures. So what actually was recorded here was the coverage each person got in the media.

The poll means very little - it was a snapshot of SABC3 viewers who felt inclined to vote at the time. I still strongly believe it doesn't belong here, and seeing as no-one has commented with any good reasons why it should stay since my June comments, I'll probably remove the listing as soon as I get the energy :) Greenman 23:18, 22 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Separate Lists

Why do we put Jews on a different list? See List of African Jews.

I read somewhere that Mandela was automatically put to number 1 in the list. I didn't see anything in the article about this. Is it true? Did I just skim too quickly and miss mention of it? Ben davison 23:19, 12 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Changing this list

Any comments on the following...

Moving Top 100 Great South Africans to its own page or to Great South Africans.
Having headings such as Politican (including actvists), Artist (musician, writer ect), Sport persons, businessmen ect

--Jcw69 18:51, 15 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with 1) (see my earlier comments). I suggest though the new article is given a name indicative of what the list represents (something like Great South Africans as voted by SABC3 viewers, and not just Great South Africans.
Headings make sense to me, and this seems to be a convention (see for example [List_of_Italian_Americans] Greenman 20:16, 16 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, sounds like the way to go. Does anybody else wants to say something before we go ahead with changing this page or do we need to vote? See List of Italian Americans as the way we looking to change this page as well as moving the top 100 elsewhere. --Jcw69 08:45, 3 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

We already have a category for South African people, why have this list at all then? As far as I can see, this list goes no further into detail than what a category could do. It also creates double work for someone who writes a new article, as instead of just adding the appropriate category they have to schlep over here to add the person to this list as well. I say move the "Top 100" section into a separate article specifically on the SABC3 series (and add it to an appropriate category such as "South African Television" or such-like) and delete this article outright. It is no more convenient than the category scheme already in place. Zunaid 08:20, 5 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes I agree with you that it is double the work but some people prefer a list than a category. --Jcw69 10:22, 5 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Okay I am going to start by moving the first part of this article to Great South Africans. I am still trying to work out how to do the headings, because a number of people fall under 2 or more headings, eg person was an activist then a politician. If anyone has any ideas let me know? --Jcw69 06:49, 9 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Okay all the chages have been done--Jcw69 12:09, 9 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Aside: Now moved to SABC3's Great South Africans -- Wiz9999 05:19, 25 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Mike Melvill

Does he really belong on this list? He has not lived in South Africa in several decades, he is not a South African citizen, and he was not a South African when he became famous. That's like putting Kalpana Chawla in a "List of Indians." —Joseph/N328KF (Talk) 19:19, 9 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Lists of musicians merged

There was a list of South African musicians here, and another one at Music of South Africa, we dont need both. I have merged those lists and moved them to List of South African musicians.--Ezeu 08:10, 12 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Possible Inclusions

Some personalities are conspicuously omitted. Here are some that I've identified whose inclusion deserves consideration.

Hendrik J. van der Bijl, Scientist and industrialist. Established both Eskom and Iskor. Was part of AT&T's team that developed the vacuum tube technology which enabled long distance wireless telephony.

Bobby Locke, Germiston born HAll-Of-Fame Golfer

Manfred Mann and Trevor Rabin, Musicians. (Potion (talk) 19:49, 3 August 2009 (UTC))[reply]

Go ahead and add them! there is an article on Bobby Locke, at least. Regards (Crusoe8181 (talk) 12:35, 28 August 2009 (UTC)).[reply]

SHARLTO COPLEY

Why is he not included??? 89.210.75.32 (talk) 08:38, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Because no one's added him yet? Wikipedia:BEBOLD. Greenman (talk) 13:55, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

New Section - Atheists

I have added a section 'Atheists', who already had their own category page.

KentisMaximus (talk) 14:00, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Apartheid adjective

Adding "Apartheid" to any, but the Anti-Apartheids-Activists is misplaced and doesn't look very NPOV. --196.2.126.173 (talk) 12:42, 13 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

J.R.R Tolkien

J.R.R Tolkien, the author of, most notably, the Lord of the Rings, was born in Bloemfontein, South Africa. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.145.148.149 (talk) 18:37, 2 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Inaccurate title

The title of this page is "List of South Africans". If you're not going to list every South African, the least you could do is rename the page to "List of South Africans about which we give a shit" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.83.3.124 (talk • contribs) 23:05, 13 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"This is a list of notable South Africans who are the subjects of Wikipedia articles." Feel free to add any that are missing. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 23:10, 13 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Will do. Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.83.3.124 (talk) 23:32, 13 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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